Never being in a relationship

[TheRenegade345]

@tyme 

I am currently seeing a mortgage broker at the moment but it is hard. Particularly if you are moving out on your own and not in a relationship or moving in with someone. This is another area where society priorities relationships over being single.

I teach English and Humanities. Not much really, struggling to do much as I have no mental energy to do anything.

Maybe thats where we are different. We all have different needs and I feel like I have a lot of love to give but no one to give it to. I try to do it through my job and it does help but it's not the things I want. I want a relationship because it's a part of who I am as a person. I think this is where I think it looks like some people dismiss this part of my life because they dont understand or know what it's like to be me. I just want connection, why is that so hard to ask for? I believe there should be a single support group and there have already been people on here that have said they would like that. Yet nothing will get done because this is an area that society takes for granted and does not consider you a human if you don't have one.

[TheRenegade345]

I feel so damn miserable I dont know what to do anymore my life is so unsatisfying

[TheRenegade345]

@tyme @Jynx @rav3n @Ru-bee 

this life is terrible, I am 30 and yet here I am struggling to do anything I cant live I struggle to do anything I cant I cant do much I dont know where to go from here all women hate me and thats why I am lonely I hate this so much I dont know what to donbnifsdf,dnlk

[TheRenegade345]

@tyme @Jynx @rav3n @Ru-bee 

I honestly feel like I will forever be misunderstood and lonely, no matter how hard I try I can never be good enough for anyone. I have put in some big strides lately and I still come across as not good enough. I am so hopeless.

[Jynx]

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@TheRenegade345 wrote:

We all have different needs and I feel like I have a lot of love to give but no one to give it to.

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Gotta admit, this is tough to read - because it reminds me so much of myself when I was still really unwell. That same thought, of having soooo much love to give, and no one to give it to, used to roll around my brain over and over, like torture. I hope it's okay I share a bit of my experience with you - you can take as much or as little of it on board as feels right for you. 

See, the hard lesson I had to learn was that human beings are remarkably good at intuiting other people's emotional states. So people could tell from a mile off that I was desperate, anxious, and self-critical. No matter how much I tried, I always got in my own head, and would put way too much stock into a budding relationship. I'd start thinking, "This person might be The One!!" (side note: there's no such thing as 'the one' in my opinion - this video sums it up perfectly). And because I got SO INTENT on the idea of the person, I would become obsessive, overbearing, and also overanalysed every single thing they said or did, looking for signs they felt the same... Yeah, every single time, they left me in the end. Because I wasn't being me, I was trying way too hard to be what I thought they wanted me to be. And they sensed that inauthenticity, and it turned them right off me. 

The thing that eventually worked to help shake me out of this mentality was to start realising that I could actually take all that excess of love I felt I needed to give to someone else and I started giving it to myself. I worked hard to start to forge a stronger sense of who I was, my inner worth, and I actually stopped looking for love, and started just... enjoying being myself. 

The second I stopped looking, stopped obsessing over my loneliness, and started living authentically, was the moment someone else noticed, and started to pursue me! 

I'm not gonna lie and say it was easy. But I would caution you against holding a belief that 'all women hate you'. Sweeping generalisations like that tend to become toxic thoughts, where we automatically start assuming someone hates us before even having a chance to get to know each other. Especially because, even if we never say it explicitly, people will still sense it - and it'll likely end up being the thing they find unattractive about us. 

More than anything, people want authenticity. That's what I've learned 💜

[TheRenegade345]

@Jynx 

I dont want to assume anything here so please correct me if I am wrong. 

If you were to meet me in real life you would find that the person I am there is very different to the person I am here on these forums. I am not perfect but I use a lot of humour in my life, particularly through my work where I have developed a reputation for being pretty cool and laidback.

I have spent years investing in hobbies and interests and investing in my own life and will continue to do that as best I can with the amount of energy I have at any given time.

I say this because it's important and to provide context. I dont think it is as simple saying just invest all the love into yourself because thats what I have been doing for the past 15 years.

From a male perspective, women dont pursue. They expect you to do that, they might use subtle clues to suggest they are interested but they will not pursue. They expect men to do all the initiating and leading.

What this has lead to is a lot of men checking out of the dating world because it just isn't worth it anymore. Men are trying to improve but it feels like the standards have just gone through the roof and no one worth his salt can achieve it. 

I also think it is a little disingenuous to suggest that the moment you started loving yourself is the moment everything changed. What about all the 100s and 1000s of people out there who have been doing that for years, even decades, and nothing has happened for them? I used to go to a support group years ago with someone who was in their 50s, had their own business, had built their own house and had all their ducks lined up in a row. Never been in a relationship no matter how hard he had tried. Women were not interested in him and he was a lovely guy to talk to and converse with.

I am not trying to be rude at all, please dont think that, but I am very jaded and cynical about that line as I have heard it before. It's a lot more complicated than that and the stats are showing it too. Women are only interested in the top 10% of all men and that means a vast majority of men are not getting a look in at all.

I understand that women have a really challenging time in the dating world, I am not knocking that back. But I wish this perspective from men was more widely known. Men are not seeing the fruits of their labours and because there is no support over it, I honestly think it has contributed to more men going down the Manosphere rabbit hole and becoming more conservative. Because no left wing organisation gives a damn about us. I am a committed left winger and always will be, but more men will leave the left because there is no support coming from this side. We need to start breaking down these barriers and move away from conservative dating practices or this will only get worse. Male suicide rates will only get worse and the dating side of things will never improve.

[Jynx]

I do agree with you @TheRenegade345 - I think this is a prime example of how so-called 'toxic masculinity' is just as harmful to men as it is to women. 

Like I said, that was just my experience, what worked for me. I wanna point out that I would have appeared confident, laid back, and sociable too - but people still sensed the desperation buried within. 

Like most things in mental health, it's always a confluence of factors - our inner worlds AND our social context both need to be taken into account, but seemingly most of the time we're encouraged to only focus on one or the other (in our individualistic society, there's usually an over-focusing on the individual, which often results in folks blaming themselves for issues that are actually be more about their social and cultural environment). You're not wrong about how social conidtioning has created a dating culture that insists on men leading. It's exhausting. Conservative dating practices are not just pointless, they are actively harmful. 

Weird thought, but you ever dated a bisexual woman? In my experience, folks who have already had to deconstruct social norms due to queerness are a lot more able/willing to ignore things like 'the man leads'. Not saying to fetishise them, but just saying that the kinds of women who are more forward do exist, but perhaps are just existing in different spaces. Two of my closest friends are bi, and both of them were the ones to ask their (male) partners out!! 

I guess what I was more trying to get at, is that our mentality matters. You say yourself you're jaded and cynical, and even if you try not to show it, well... people can often still tell. You speak about women as though they're all the same... Maybe that's just in making your point, so forgive me if I am making an assumption here, but if that's the mentality you have when you go on a date, they will sense it. If you've already unconsciously assumed a woman is going to 'be like other women' and unconsciously assumed she wants you to lead, your behaviour will reflect that. 

I dunno, it is obviously very complicated. Modern society is... well, a lot of it is horrible. Sometimes what we have to work on is detangling ourselves from our own assumptions, so we can be more open to the things that break the norms and align with our values. 

[TheRenegade345]

@Jynx 

I have never not considered dating a bisexual woman but the question I have is "where are they?". I understand that maybe you are asking am I open to it but I dont know where they are at all.

I think it is objectively true to state that dating is harder for women than men. I genuinely believe that based on what I have heard and seen. That doesn't invalidate the problems that men have to face when it comes to dating women. There is a really good video on Youtube where a female dating coach interviews all these women and what they look for in a man. All of them come back with these ridiculous expectations where only the top 1% of all men can achieve that. When the dating coach calls them out on that they initially got very defensive but then when they were showed the figures, they realised how out of touch they really were.

I only say all women because it honestly feels that way sometimes. I dont want to make a false equivalence here or say these things are exactly the same, but I feel like its in the same vein as when women say "all men are terrible and only care about one thing". Both of those things are necessarily the same but the point I am trying to make here is that women's standards are extremely high and it is soul destroying going on all these dates and never making it past the first one.

I think with all that in mind, I have every reason to feel jaded and cynical about the dating world. Wouldn't you? You have spent years getting two degrees, you have a job that does give you meaning, I am trying to move out, you have a whole list of hobbies and interests that keep you entertained. Yet, I keep hearing stories of these toxic men who have no issue getting with women, have kids with these women, and abscond all responsibility and accountability and yet get away with it and find other women to date. Yet men like me cannot get anywhere with women at all.

If you ever met me though, I would challenge you to find any hint of me feeling jaded and cynical at all. Sure I can feel tired after work or I can get a bit of a sensory overload, but I have told that I warm and empathic in real life. I have worked on expressing myself more so I have more to offer in conversations. We are in desperate need of providing more support for men and for single people. The more I talk about it the more convinced I am.

[Jynx]

@TheRenegade345 Haha they're around, I imagine for some of them it is not always easy to be open about it because of the stigma. Another thought worth exploring - consensual non-monogamy. I mention it because it is another subsection of the population who have spent time deconstructing the dominant narratives of the mononormative paradigm. You might balk at the thought, and many people do! But if it has even a little bit piqued your curiosity let me know, happy to infodump about it (else you can head to this website, or grab a copy of Polysecure by Jessica Fern or The Ehtical Slut by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy).

So if I'm reading you correctly, the feeling is that because it is so difficult for women to date, the difficulties men face are often downplayed or overshadowed. I get that. I think that's why I drew that comparison to toxic masculinity, becasue the same is true there. If it's something you're super passionate about, have you ever thought about finding some activist groups? Or do they all tend to lead down that right-wing rabbithole?

Unfortunately, I think the thing with those toxic men you mention is that because they don't really see women as people, they're more inclined to lie, cheat, and charm their way into the marital bed. And (whilst this is a generalisation) a lot of the women who fall prey to those kinds of men are often women who have been raised by those kinds of men. They literally just don't realise that they don't have to be in toxic/abusive relationships because the relationships modelled to them growing up were toxic and abusive. This is where you get women who go from toxic relationship to toxic relationship and wonder where all the good men are. I think the unfortunate thing about that cycle as well is that you get used to the intensity; those kinda of relationships are typically fraught with immense highs and horrible lows, which keeps the nervous system in a state of constant agitation. Then when they find a stable, solid guy, they can sometimes feel like there's no passion, or that he's boring - not because he is, but because the nervous system is so used to 'love=HUGE EMOTIONS GOOD AND BAD'. 

So much of it is systemic and cultural issues hey... And don't even get me started on the toxicity of the media and how that has absolutely ruined dating culture, in my opinion. The whole point of movies and tv is to create dramatic tension, of course the relationships depicted are going to be crappy! But people still model their behaviour off it anyway. 

Don't suppose you have a local mens shed or any other similar organisation where you could seek some support? You may have already looked so forgive me if I am just making the same old frustrating suggestions at you. It sounds like solidarity could go a long way for you though. 

I appreciate you being open and honest with me @TheRenegade345 and calling me out when I get it wrong. You deserve to feel heard and understood. 

[TheRenegade345]

@Jynx 

Like I am not 100% against the idea, I just dont know how you start with that. Bear in mind I have spent well over a decade talking about this stuff with therapists and lots of other people so I am aware of consensual non-monogamy and have read about it. What I would like to know of what practical solutions are there that I can do? I feel like I have done a lot of work on myself and I dont feel like I need book solutions, more practical ones. I still wonder how this deals with the situation where I cant even get on a date with a woman, let alone be in multiple relationships.

I think the issues that men deal with are perfectly valid but if we ever bring them up we are all deemed as incels or entitled. I truly think it comes down to the fact that the narrative is all men are terrible and women cannot be critiqued because of it. However, there are things women do in the dating world that are objectively wrong and never get called out on it. I think a lot of mens groups do go down the right wing rabbit hole because there are no mens health role models on the left. The main issue that men struggle with right now is that they dont feel seen by women and feel rejected by them. I have heard that the numbers are almost around of 70% of men dont feel seen by men and the dating pool of men that women date is an incredibly small number. Yet no one on the left is talking about this in running the risk of being deemed as entitled or being viewed as an incel so where do all men go? They look at Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson because (even though they are both despicable people) they are the only people addressing this issue in the public space. I honestly believe due to the recent US election, we have lost an entire generation of men because of it to the right. I have never heard any feminist come out in solidarity with men. Never, not once.

I do understand that and I am aware of that. I do think because of our conservative dating climate and that only men should be pursuing, a lot of men are just not as sympathetic to that anymore, particularly men who are going to therapy, doing the work, building themselves up only to see the toxic men win out time and time again. I know I have some personal experience with this with someone that could have been in a relationship with me. She chose to date a guy who was 15 years older than her, was her boss, and was married with another woman. I do feel for women who have been through this however, from what I have seen, men (particularly who have done the work) are just not sympathetic to that anymore. I know it sounds blunt but we are tired of being overlooked for this men. Absolutely done with it and I have personally had enough of it.

I have looked for mens groups, there arent a lot around here. I did try to make my own but it didn't go anywhere. I just want solidarity and people who understand this but it's really hard to find. This is why I have no hope. Why should I? Being a quiet introverted man in this day and age is a death sentence.